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More on the controversy ‘stirred up’ by Stephen Fry. Interesting?! I trust this is the ‘end of it’!. http://www.nme.com/filmandtv/news/mental-health-charity-mind-responds-to-stephen-fry/404616
As they might say in another place: I refer the honorable member to the post Umbongo posted a few moments ago…
Hi Kevin. It’s Wed. April 13th and I just found this. Trust it is a good summary on what does indeed appear to be an issue. I was taught many years ago that it was necessary to face the fact- so to speak, in order to over come ‘it’. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-which-child-sexual-abuse-victim-do-you-think-changed-their-mind-about-trigger-warnings-a6980546.html
Kevin. I’m going to do a reversal. I’m going to drop the issue, unless I get an invite. That’s more fair, don’t you think. After all, it’s your show! I’m glad that some people said they found some benefit from what these chaps have been doing,whether that was a temporary relief or had more permanence as a cure. I have my own ‘beliefs’ in that regard, but from your choice of videos I really don’t want to interfere with your preferences. I do not however withdraw the comment regarding the possible triggering mechanism that could result from a video such as this. I can only hope that some educational process is available to people who might be susceptible to such phenomena. I know from experiences that these mental processes and states of inner being are things that one has to grow in ‘consciousness’ to understand. That in itself is a major part of the ‘battle’ in overcoming them. The issues are much wider than merely ‘hearing’ voices, would you agree!!! Till we talk again,through your ‘voices’ or ‘mine’!!! 🙂
Dear Kevin. I have just viewed this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlHImAGVXWY I do not believe that I have to view more in order to confirm that my instinct/intuition was within my experience substantiated by viewing this. I shall mention a few words: Manson, abyss, boredom, drugs-ecstasy, and of course voices, and all of the other spiritual references particularly at the end of the video. I ‘know the scene’. Let us say. I have much experience to convey in my book PortalsofParadox with respect to all of these and their relation to mental health issues. Please know therefore, firstly, that I withdrawn any pressure upon you to meet my challenge. I have satisfied myself what this is all about. I also possibly understand your stated position on this, including the poem, with far more ‘intimacy’ than you might expect. I do believe that it would be beneficial however, to have a discussion on this phenomena, if you would agree to this. I have the intuition that we have divergent perspectives on this, all of which could be discussion in a civil way, I am sure. If not you or anyone can Google my book, which I now am now in the process of flushing out in great detail now that I have a much more certain grip on the experience, and this issue generally. Another alternative is possible. I can withdraw from the program entirely, and leave you to your ‘senior positiion’ in this assembly, and let you choose and conduct the music program the way you desire. Everyone is free to join or leave a group at their discretion, although I hold myself the perspective, that one is free only when on understand the many perspectives required for a thorough understanding. I realize more and more that I have indeed work to do in rewriting PortalsofParadox, which is best accessed if the spaces are deleted in the URL. Unless I hear from you, to the contrary, I will assume that a discussion on this issue will be possible on April 4th. I will leave this e-mail with the hope and expectation that much could be gained by sharing our experience on such issues presented in this and other video. I would not want to place personal information in such a comment box as this. Such is possible for me, perhaps within a casual setting, or as I now understand within the context of a book, which can be described and taken as fiction, creative non fiction, or historical documentary, as a book is as you said within a context in which people do choose in their interpretation what they choose, without default even to the ‘truth’. Thank you Kevin. P.S. On the abyss, for instance: Did not Nietzsche say: Beware of the abyss, (paraphrase) for when you stare at it, it will also stare back at you. I also know much about the culture of Indonesia, and the ghost sighting and miracles and all, of which I find it interesting are acceptable as I understand the speaker in this film, which possibly conflicts with the status of miracles as perceived today within the Western ‘religions’. I assert that I do not consider myself prejudiced or with cognitive bias with respect to these issues – nor the drug cultures, etc. I have merely within my life attempted as well to understand the psychological and anthropological interpretations with respect to these issues. And a final comment, I am glad that at the end he indicated, my interpretation, that he had come to some conclusion that being ‘on the exterior’ (another paraphrase, for which I apologize) was for him the better choice. If not one in your community feels they might be influenced to their detriment, on a free choice, and with due information on the subject, I shall simply withdraw from the ‘argument’, for i do indeed have other interests and projects to pursue,including what I appreciate more and more every day, an interesting tale to tell, if i life long enough to do that.. Loreen Lee.
To carry on from my last comment, in which I attempted to make a ‘positive’ conclusion with the remark: Quote: Yes. there is a market producing fear today…do you think such video’s could help over come fear – through the objectification of what produces fear….am I making sense? Later. it’s late….Have to do some correcting elsewhere….
First – I appreciate far more the most recent post you have just made following this one. For the process of recovery, it is important that readers of this site have the opportunity to receive information such as you often offer. I follow Google alerts for this purpose, and of course, Google is a good exercise, for means to obtain cognitive therapy, and all sorts of possibilities that were not available to me, during the 60’s onwards. Indeed, they did not even have a diagnosis of PTSD until after the Vietnam war in the l980’s. I have attempted therefore to be most positive myself in replay and asking questions about such a disturbing (if you will allow that possibility) video as this might be discerned to be by someone with mental health problems. Indeed dissociation and desensitization can often characterize the relation of a person in some state of avoidance, and may I suggest that such a possibility could be described by the quote in the first sentence. No, i am no longer going to let you off the hook on this. I asked you once why you posted such videos and you replied I believe, correct if in error, that you got some sort of satisfaction from it. Of course I do not have the access to your mind that I do to a video such as this, or the possible health concern that could be related to it. I propose therefore, that this could be a topic to be discussed at the next meeting, which is I believe April 4th. I’m not the best presented in public, and because of the distance the internet allows, have found that I have been ability to develop some ability at this, through the debates, for example on SN/EN. But this is more close to home. Perhaps you could explain the video to begin with. As i said, i still do not get the plot, and there is a few sentences spoken, that I have not been able to discern, or make out, even on several replays.
From there, things can perhaps proceed on an ad hoc basis. Do know thought that my intention will be directed to understand what reasons could be given pro and con whether such a video for this could be health for those who indeed hope to be in a state of recovery. I have been up all night, questioning this from a philosophical and patient perspective, for instance. With a title such as Recovery-network, I will keep to the presumed mandate that this is for the benefit of all, and not for the author. Yes. I am challenging you Keven Healey. If you can give the answers you have regarding alerts, and all the rest of it, I will simply assume that there can be a critical perspective of any content that can be interpretative as directed to any kind of therapy toward recovery, whether it be from doctor or patient. I have had association with psychiatry for fifty years, 2017, and have seen many changes in the field, to the betterment of the health care offered. I believe such is possible with respect to the content offered on this site.
Kevin. I just did more research on this group. Also followed the link on Industrial Music, etc. but if they believe they understand what the post-moderns are all about, they are not talking philosophy. I believe this video need a ‘buyer beware’ alert. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Throbbing_Gristle
everything means what we make it to mean
the whole internet, maybe all of life needs a “buyer beware” alert…
Genesis P Orridge on how they got started…
Thank you for responding, but I believe we could have a very long ‘philosophical argument’ on this one. But to begin at the beginning, I remember in the sixties ‘improvisational acting’ on the street, I forget the name she used for it, don’t want to go back and didn’t taken notes, but yes, that is what it was called. But it seems that her ‘industrial music’ could also have another name – technology. A priori. You are making the case that would seem to follow some interpretation of Nietzsche’s beyond good and evil, which could be thought of as very commendable, if the thesis can be held that all can be as ‘one thinks it’. But there is within this whole episodic thing, the possibility of the strive and love distinction, which was originally set by Empedocles. It is the possibility of these divergences that perhaps is relevant to what could be interpreted as going ‘beyond’. I would have to go through her ‘argument’ or ‘explanation’ for other interpretations which I would have to find some coherence with my experience of these authors, musicians, philosophers, etc. But,it seems that the intent is to break with every possible precursor, which was emphasized in her discussion on their avoidance of ‘drums’, and yet they sought or had to have some sort of rhythm. There are, then, as she admits in this case – limits to her philosophy. The word, pornography, perhaps could have many other meanings within this context. If you enjoy this music for the pleasure it gives you I can only describe you as a very remarkable person. But then when it comes to ‘taste’, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Would you say, also that morality is! Not, for instance, if you have been, for instance a victim of rape. You made a statement that last time I was able to attend one of your meeting, that in India the voices originated in the what’, religion; in Africa – the family, (I may not have this exact) but it was not so in our culture. Here, and I thought that you had some regret regarding this truth, the voices – spoke – about violence. This ‘band’ for me, and I suspect also for you, speak to such violence, so I wonder truly whether I should refer you back to the original song I referred you to….on the possibility that somewhere deep within this treatment of this material, there is the sound of some silence, that dares not find expression……or cannot find such expression within a song that truly is organic, (I note the way she used this word) and not the result of some ‘impersonal’ representation that can be identified not with the human but with technology. Yes, computers, and robots are going to be more intelligent that ‘we’—- Hawkins and others are concerned about possibilities in this regard…..Granted, there are aspects of this search for freedom that are most ‘original’………but…….I would prefer in this case, the silence, without the sound. No further words, that’s just a thought. I did not fine the order in chaos that I identify with the beautiful…….which is a comment on your observation, that in our current world situation, there can indeed be much that can put on ‘alert’…..!!!! I do not ‘buy their philosophy’ – and with respect to: everything means what we make it to mean – please don’t forget the ever possibility of ‘others’ making something mean what they indeed it to mean……Not when such a possibility is a real ‘buyer’ beware alert!!! Technology can indeed be shown to have a direct relationship with objectification….from the way chickens are housed, to the Nazi concentration camps. Heidegger pointed out the similarity in his writings on technology, for those who made him the mouth piece of the Nietzsche, as he was understood by Nazi Germany—- who is the accused and who is the accuser—–sometimes you have to identify such differences, even within the dialectic of strive and love. They are very intelligent and definitely artists…..I am still unable though to overcome contradiction here, and thus am still caught in the web of objectification that you have identified with violence……
Hi Kevin. After posting the comment, I had a Chabad e-mail waiting for me. I am involved at the moment in the study of Israel and Judea: Hassidic and Kabbalah: Here is what awaited me:
One who loves must learn fear. One who fears must learn love.
The thinker must do. The doer must think. The pacifist must fight, the fighter must find peace.
If you flow as a river, burn as a fire. If you burn as a furnace, flow as a river. If you fly as a bird, sit firm as a rock. If you sit firmly, then fly as a bird.
Go yet further: Do both at once. Be a fire that flows; a rock that flies. Love with fear and fear with love.
For we are not fire, not water, not air, not rocks, not thoughts, not deeds, not fear, not love.
We are G‑dly beings.
I would have to find the quote, that most atheists are correct to refuse the #^$ that is made, or in which the – is !!!!! But I’m also, possibly ‘not up’ to being crucified!!!! These are very difficult questions. That where one stands is…..sometimes it’s hard to know – where – one stands….(I was not emotionally disturbed by this post – by the way – it was more of an intellectual ‘concern’ and yes, it did lead me to ‘wonder’ why you post these incredible musical videos, and wonder how you find them. Take care, Kevin…..Yes – there’s a lot of technology out there – robot drones, even, without a conscience?????? “Love with fear and fear with love”???? Will love triumph over that electric kind of atom bomb that’s being talked about. Yes. there is a market producing fear today…do you think such video’s could help over come fear – through the objectification of what produces fear….am I making sense? Later. it’s late….Have to do some correcting elsewhere….
But the comments within this post – say things better than I. http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/7354/
Am really having trouble making the ‘links’. Another try. If not, I guess it’s just a case of Googling.
I still could understand the plot of the video, (is that an acceptable word here.) But I will post another version, with out links to the video I sent you on my first reply. Just in case the feeling, or understanding or lack thereof, is ‘mutual’: Does this sound OK to you? https://ca.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Sound+of+Silence&fr=ssb-uh-t1
What? Is this a ‘song’ without words. Perhaps this will be a help – although some the sixties, and a time, or perspective, within this political climate, that …..I’m without words…..Where are the ‘voices’? http://en.musicplayon.com/play?v=979583
voices aren’t words
words don’t mean what they say
cant say what they mean
voice is a word too